EVs - Discuss!

Redline

Zorg Expert (I)
British Zeds
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Nuneaton
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E89 20i msport
OK - this is a Zed forum, but, its clear there are a few EV users amongst us. I suspect that there are many things to learn and understand, and we can only do that by sharing experiences.
There are probably some confusion caused too by the outlandish claims of the manufacturers about distance you can get on a charge. It's not the whole story.

So, for starters, here is my experience today. Day 1.

Both tank and batteries full before setting out to do a 55 mile trip up the M1 and back. About 4 miles each end on normal roads, both town and country.

While the mpg from car computers is frequently misleading, it's all I have for the moment.

The only time I intervened in choice of power source was in the 6 miles northbound through the roadworks from Jn 23a to 25 where I used only the ICE. Being the first trip, that was due to some anxiety on total range. I ended the outward journey with 80% of charge being left, For the remainder of the journey both there and back, the car decided which power source to use, switching as it thought necessary while retaining good performance.

I wasn't being frugal - pretty much driving at speed and acceleration that I would have done.

Overall, I did 28% of the journey on batteries. That is 30.2 miles - on one charge! That includes the whole section of roadworks on the way back. The days MPG was a reported 54.2mpg.

The surprising things was the amount of energy put back into the batteries when coasting, slowing and braking. You can see the charge level going up at times and not down. That recharging process is clearly quite efficient and extends the range above battery only claims. It works irrespective of what mode is selected.

There are a number of modes available to use, but, on today's experience, letting the car itself work out what to do is probably better than over thinking the situation and believing you know better. Only when you know that you'll need battery power for a significant distance at some stage is it worth commanding ICE only operation.

OK - only one days experience, one swallow and all that....
Compared to previous experience in the Disco, a fuel cost saving on the day of over £10. Against the same engined E89 a saving of £5. OK - it needs a lot of miles to recoup the capital costs, but, for good performance that's quite a difference. Build in lots of local journeys, it mounts up.

The petrol use ignoring the battery use works out at 39mpg. That is about the same as overall real-world reported figures for the 20i (same engine - 37.8mpg), although all mine were high speed where the 20i would do better.

So, day 1 is done. As good as if not better than I expected on a journey where I expected a lower saving.

What are the experiences of others?
 

Redline

Zorg Expert (I)
British Zeds
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Nuneaton
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Dino D

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Kent
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I think any 4 door saloon is more frugal than a disco, an M3 could probably do better than a disco at the same given speed!

Can the 330e use the battery to add power (ie run both engines at once?)
 

Redline

Zorg Expert (I)
British Zeds
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Points
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Nuneaton
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E89 20i msport
I think any 4 door saloon is more frugal than a disco, an M3 could probably do better than a disco at the same given speed!

Can the 330e use the battery to add power (ie run both engines at once?)
Absolutely. It turns out almost the same power as the 330i. The difference is the power comes on tap the moment you hit the pedal and not a fraction of a second later. Then both turbo’s kick in. Of course it’s only available while there is juice to go.
There is a Sport mode (not used yet) and that keeps the battery charged to 50% or more at the cost of fuel, but, you’re not going to be counting the pennies if you’ve selected that mode.
 

Redline

Zorg Expert (I)
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Nuneaton
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E89 20i msport
@Dino D - on petrol alone the mpg is below the equivalent 320i simply because of the extra weight. I think any trips beyond 100 miles or so without a recharge will become increasingly expensive. If you do those regularly it’s not the right car. The occasional trip above that is fine - just a tad more expensive.
 

5harp3y

Zorg Guru (IV)
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Basingstoke
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2.8
@Dino D - on petrol alone the mpg is below the equivalent 320i simply because of the extra weight. I think any trips beyond 100 miles or so without a recharge will become increasingly expensive. If you do those regularly it’s not the right car. The occasional trip above that is fine - just a tad more expensive.
I disagree, nearly all of my journeys are over 100 miles and I do over 25,000 miles a year.

Last week I did 600 miles and only charged once, still showing 45.1 mpg

Hybrids make no sense if you are doing under 100 miles, might as well go full electric.

Hybrids only make sense to dodge company car tax / raid tax
 

Pingu

Zorg Guru (III)
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Bought. 9 months old and 1k miles. Big chunk of depreciation already taken.
The trouble with new models is that you have no idea what the depreciation curve is going to be like. Looking at AutoTrader prices, it looks like they are 55% value after 1 year (£22k compared to £37k). 2yo cars look to be 80% value of 1yo cars (£17k compared to £22k) - this is comparable to petrol/diesel BMWs. So depreciation looks to be similar to other BMWs from the end of year 1. That's good news.

Do you lease the battery? If not, what is the plan if the battery is toasted? It looks like BMW only warrant their batteries for 6 years/100,000 miles and won't replace above 70% capacity. There looks to be all the usual stuff in the warranty gunf...
https://www.bmw.co.uk/bmw-ownership...rranties/bmw-iperformance-warranty-guidelines
about making sure that the car is properly serviced by authorised workshops - that could be costly (but much cheaper than getting a new battery pack fitted).

Do you have solar cells? Free recharging if you do:). It would be worth considering (even if the FiT is now next to nothing), as you will still be able to use your own cells to charge the car:thumbsup:.

Does your home charger have its own meter? If you are pulling power from the grid, you need to know how much it's costing to charge the car, otherwise you won't know how much you're saving.

I wish that I were in your position of having a thirsty car to get rid of, but it only costs 10ppm for my petrol Smart and 12ppm for my diesel van, so it makes no financial sense to me to go electric - much though I want to:(.
 

Redline

Zorg Expert (I)
British Zeds
Joined
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Points
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Nuneaton
Model of Z
E89 20i msport
The battery issue is an interesting one. They, as far as I can tell, are constructed from many cells which can be replaced individually. I don’t know if each cell or groups have their own monitoring. The whole battery system won’t fail because a few cells have gone. Replacing the whole pack is the (current) dealer option because of time I expect. It is new technology so there will be issues but I’m sure solutions will be there to get faulty cells replaced - there will be money in it. I think there is a great deal of unnecessary fear generated over the battery systems. It is well tried and tested across industries eg Communications.
It’s new to cars, but, unlike most uses where they are reserve power, in cars they’re in active use and being cycled. We’ll see how they perform over time. It’s usually lack of use that kills them - they’re often awol when called to arms when used that way. 4 years replacement cycle is common in those applications.

The warranty issue is the normal one. I did a cash purchase but got them to add in a service contract foc to effectively reduce the cost of ownership (because there was no latitude to negotiate just on price), and, in doing so, cover the warranty issue.

Depreciation is the same as any car. EVs are no different until the cost of fuel rises. Buying new doesn’t make economic sense like any car in my opinion. The EV and particularly the hybrid sector is being driven by tax policy and pollution charges. The latter looks like appearing in Birmingham soon. Am sure others will follow. That will affect and hopefully increase residuals.

A dedicated meter is an interesting point. Rather expensive to install just to gather data. Probably best to be integrated with the charger or better, have the car push the data. I will be looking at that.

In conjunction with solar cells makes great sense, but, it’s probably not worth installing just to feed your car. We will be downsizing in a year or two. Not worth investing now I suspect but still should be considered I guess.

Are EVs here to stay? I suspect not in their current technology. But, they have a place and there is urgent need to use them.
ICE cars won’t disappear overnight.

Are they any good?

It is a different driving experience simply because of how quiet they are. Am amazed how the technology works - the transition is virtually imperceptible and little impact on performance. It is a compromise so has some penalties but it isn’t huge. To maximise cost reduction just on usage (not including BiK), it needs a little more attention and certain journey profiles, but (Hybrid) is a viable solution in any situation although the efficiency decreases with longer journeys.

For company car EV owners I suspect the tax savings far outweigh the fuel savings to the point where, for some, it is worth ignoring the EV part and just pay the fuel costs for lugging the battery around, especially if they’re not paying for the fuel. I’m sure that wasn’t intended when reduced BiK was introduced for them.

It isn’t a silver bullet solution. If it fits your life (or that imposed by legislative and tax, local and national) it becomes worth it.

From a technology point of view, I am impressed. For most though, the cost of transition is too large. Existing ICEs will be around for decades. There’s just too many out there and they are the mainstay of the car industry and sectors that support it.
 

Ianmc

Zorg Guru (IV)
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Does it wash clothes? I am an unashamed Luddite in this regard.:)
 

Redline

Zorg Expert (I)
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Nuneaton
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Does it wash clothes? I am an unashamed Luddite in this regard.:)
I was in that position myself. They are a viable option and there will always be detractors as well as advocates.
A few months there was a discussion about tighter and tighter emissions. There’s too many cars out there to replace them and some larger vehicles don’t suit electric even though there is a push for them.
We’re lucky in that our circumstances have changed so it was an ideal time to look at it closely. Compared to where we were and are now, it pays. Hopefully....
 

Stevo7682

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Maybole , South Ayrshire
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I will be interested so see how you and your new car get on as I know that you will be quite detailed on your analysis of how it performs running costs etc.
I quite like the concept of all the hybrids plus full electric cars although I do still have some concerns about them .
Electric range ( needs to much improve )
Battery pack life ( and subsequent replacement cost)
I also have some concerns about the petrol engine fitted to hybrids related to emmisions levels and engine wear my concern is that a lot of these vehicles run electric engine kicks in and out when voltage low my problem with that is engine never properly warm up so in my view must suffer more wear by cold start all the time along with less efficient fuel burn from cold ( higher emmisions) ( not checked on hybrids for mot ) things like exhaust corrosion higher again due to cold start more.
So I think there are still a number of things to be ironed out but also I think a step in the right direction.
I someone can re invent the battery to move us forward then these vehicles will be the end of fossil fuel powered vehicles
 

Ianmc

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these vehicles will be the end of fossil fuel powered vehicles
Most electricity is still produced by "fossil fuel" so electric cars are fossil fuel powered, one way or the other.
 

Redline

Zorg Expert (I)
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Steve - you raise some interesting points and ones I had already wondered about.

The engine cuts in if you hit the throttle hard, if the battery is depleted or if speed goes above 52mph (other cars may vary).
Hitting the throttle hard when it’s cold is the situation that’s likely to cause greatest wear. Probably an issue if you try and join traffic that’s moving at speed.
If you’re on a depleted battery, that’s just like driving normally. The engine lights up and runs just like a stop/start system.

The speed scenario is one that is one that made me think earlier. 2 miles on a dual carriageway itself 2 miles from cold so would be getting some heat in on a normal engine. You’re putting the engine under high load from cold in this hybrid, running for a couple of minutes and it never gets warm.
Longer journeys or higher speeds are not so much of an issue.

On the 330e I believe the motor is the engine side of the zf box (and that’s a wonderful box). I don’t know but suspect the engine is turning even if not in use. If so, there must be continuous oil distribution around the engine. It’s not warm, but it’s moving. Would love to know what’s happening there.

The exhaust is a concern if the engine doesn’t regularly push through hot gases to clear any condensation. Will check if it is a stainless steel system.

The other area is the brakes. The regenerative braking system i’m Guessing doesn’t exercise the discs and pads. I’m not sure at what point the real brakes start to get used and how much.

So much to investigate and discover :wideyed:
 

Redline

Zorg Expert (I)
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Nuneaton
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Most electricity is still produced by "fossil fuel" so electric cars are fossil fuel powered, one way or the other.
That I think has to be treated as a separate discussion. It applies to every corner of modern day living, not just transport.
A different set of issues that society has to deal with too.

I believe we recently had the first day for decades where all uk power was generated without using coal. A big milestone. Oil and gas were still used so still a long way to go.

Will have to dig out the energy conversion efficiency for the various forms of generation including ICEs. Centralised generation is always going to be more efficient even adding in distribution losses compared to relatively low chemical conversion efficiency from ICEs. Petrol engines are in the region of 20%+ efficient whereas power generation is typically around 40%. Centralising it still has advantages.

So, yes, you’re right, but, you can’t start a long journey without taking the first steps.
Getting from 20% to say 35% is an increase of 75% - a big jump.
The fact we have little headroom in uk generation is an investment issue.
 

stevie_a

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Glasgow'ish
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Well i have been driving this all week, and got it till Tuesday night,

It has been interesting, supposed 180 mile range from full, i am looking into them for work to see if it will for-fill the roll of the vans we have. which are the diesel versions.

IMG_20180904_183955.jpg
IMG_20180904_184012.jpg
 

Redline

Zorg Expert (I)
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Nuneaton
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E89 20i msport
I bet they’ll return little more than 100 miles when the leaden footed grease monkeys get hold of them. Not known for their mechanical sympathies for equipment that someone else owns. Should still do most of a days work if it’s local though.
 
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